A Simplified Approach to Small Business Marketing

Welcome to another engaging episode of The Small Business Show where your hosts, Swire Ho and Mike Snyder, elaborate on how nurturing continuous innovation, agility, and establishing robust client relationships are keys to sustainable business growth. Embark on this enlightening journey to explore how collaborative learning and strategic partnerships can lead to mutual growth and success.

This episode delves further into the significance of regular interactions and sharing knowledge through live streams, webinars, and interactive events as an impactful marketing strategy. They also underline the role of first mover advantage in the increasingly competitive market landscape, the need for businesses to harbor a culture of continuous innovation, and the agility to quickly respond to market dynamism for long-term business success. Enjoy learning how to recalibrate your marketing efforts for improved visibility, ongoing value provision, and a fortified market position.

Contact info for Mike Synder

https://www.facebook.com/rsmmarketing/
https://www.linkedin.com/company/rsm-marketing
https://twitter.com/rsmmarketingict
https://www.instagram.com/rsmmarketing/

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Transcript

0:16

And growing a small business. The Small Business show is the official podcast of Garuda promo and branding solutions. HELLo EveryOne, you're listening to the Small Business show. I'm your host Swayer Ho. You can also call me the promo guy. My guest today is Mike Snyder from RSM Marketing. Mike is an interesting guy. RSN Marketing is a firm and outsourcing marketing department to company across all industry and nationwide. For Mike's background, he is a retired Marine Corps lieutenant colonel who served as the public affair officer in New York City, the Pentagon and Nora where he led media relations and information operation. In the aftermath of 911. He's routinely addressed the media question regarding UFO sightings and area 51. Very interesting. Mike is a graduate of Marine Corps Command and Staff College. Mike is also co author of the book the great Marketing Line. Welcome to the show Mike. Hello swire, thank you for having me here. No wonder you answer questions so good. I was asking Mike a lot of random questions before we start the show and he answered everything perfectly because he has trained for it, he has all the experience. Mike, love to dive deeper. With your background in marketing, how did you transition from being in the military and to your role in marketing at RSM marketing? Well, that's a very fair question. I was very fortunate to go into public affairs in the Marine Corps, right? And I did it in very great markets for expansive learning like New York City, DC, the Pentagon, NORAd over 911, dealing with international media and that's a subset of marketing. So I got my master's degree in marketing communications. I got out of the military for the third time and I went to work for a large accounting firm and I was the first marketing director. And that is really what led to my niching in marketing. And I had the opportunity to start several businesses. I worked at an ad agency and then I started a marketing firm and a couple of other businesses. And that's really how I traipsed from the Marine Corps through my skill set in public affairs into marketing and even becoming a marketing consultant. Over the years I've learned a lot through hundreds of case studies with small businesses all across the country and even wrote a book about it called the great marketing lie. And here we are talking about it. But that's how it went from being a member of the gun club. The US Marine Corps highly recommend know retiring as lieutenant colonel and getting into marketing and advertising. Isn't that just a wonderful second career, so to speak? Yeah, that's a fun segue and fun transition to a different career. So since you are a marketing expert and you are used to answering all kinds of questions that throw at you. I want to start out with a soft, but it's a difficult one for a lot of us small business people. What is marketing in your opinion? Oh my God. This is starting off with a softball, right? Wow. What is the universe? Let's define that. So what is marketing? I tell you what, I'm very passionate about this question. Unfortunately for you in the audience, and I can give you a short answer, most of us get it wrong. We think that marketing is all the stuff. So if you talk to a business owner and they go, you say, what is marketing? They're going to say, well, that's my website and that's the video that I have on the website and that's my PPC, my ads that I'm running, that's my sales presentation, my trade show booth, right? And it goes on and on and on and on. And we go, no, that's not marketing. Marketing is above that. What you're talking about, and what everybody gets confused is you're talking about marketing communications, okay? Marketing is simply different than that. And it's easy. And this is where marketing, you take it out of the hands of marketers. And truly marketing, the function of marketing belongs with that president, with that CEO, with that business owner. Because marketing, and here comes the definition, in my humble opinion, and this is reinforced by a lot of business literature out there, they say it slightly differently, but it's a core function that we all agree on. And it is simply the ability within a business to identify what a market will value and buy that the company can make. That's two at a profit to the shareholders. So just again, marketing is the function in a business, usually distributed, that identifies what a market will value and pay for that the company can make at a profit. Those are the three fundamental components of marketing. That is why marketing does not deserve to be in the same department as marketing communications. Because marketing communications simply takes that marketing, right. All that we've defined in that marketing function and they communicate it down. I'm so glad that you're able to answer that in a short amount of time. And there's a lot to that. The communication, as we think sometimes we call tactics, right? Whatever that you decide to do, direct mail, email, marketing or promotional product, those are the tactics. But you are talking about the high level view of who you're targeting, what you should be doing. So you're actually figuring out the strategy that is needed to the communication part. And I think a lot of the small business owner. We think about their tactics first. Everyone is doing, even marketing. Everyone is doing billboard on the freeway. That's why if we are in the same industry, we should do that. Do you notice that happen a lot? Like people in the same industry always do the same thing and they are somewhat afraid to try something new. Do you see that a lot in working with clients? Well, that's really another fascinating question. Marketing, true marketing. True marketing requires great courage because true marketing results in differentiation. Differentiation is the goal of marketing. It's like, okay, what will a market value? Well, they're going to value something that generally does not exist yet. They don't want what they can get cheap. They want something that has value that they haven't seen yet. Look at the suv when it was created. Look at the iPhone when it was created. Look, it doesn't even. I can tell you a story. Right? What does value look like that differentiates for a business and a business owner so that they don't have to go spending a lot of money. A lot of business owners, to your point, they get into business. I don't care whether it's a small business or a large business. It could be 100 million dollar manufacturing firm and they're making fuel transfer pumps, or they're making custom dyes. And so are ten other competitors doing it the same way and they're all talking the same way. And so what that does, because there's no real value identification for the market, it drives the price down. So again, when you sell a commodity that has general category, what I call category value, that drives your price down, if you can identify value, and I'll give you two examples really quickly, that price goes up. So we were working with an led distributor. They distributed large led panels like you'd see in a retail outfit or as you'd see on a highway, the big boards, right, 24 x 48 or whatever size they are. And so they brought us in to help them sell, break into a small business niche. And we said, okay, we have to figure out what they value. And so we did a bunch of research on behalf of this client and we came back with them and they said, okay, your typical small business owner is going to work eight to six or seven to six, seven to seven, go home, have dinner with the family, and then they're going to pay their bills and do some accounting.

Nine to ten, and around 11: 8:14

00 at night, they're going to get online and they're going to try to find out how much does a panel cost? If I want to put it up in my store or if I want to put it up my medical office, right. Or if I want to put it up, whatever. And that's when they're doing the research. So our recommendation is to create value for them by giving them the pricing online. So the strategy, the value point is your audience wants online pricing. Your strategy is going to be, guess what? Give them what they want. Give them online pricing. And the client, no, we can't do that. As soon as we do that, our competitors are going to know. And we said, well, we know. We've already talked to a lot of people and your competitors already know anyway, because as soon as you give the quote to even that business owner, they're going to go quote it out elsewhere, give them what they want. And so they reluctantly did it. We created what we call this configurator. A decade later, they're still using it as a primary strategy for that market segment. And in that first year, it brought a million dollars of new business to that client in that new market segment. And they learned that the average client bought four more times for a huge lifetime value. And it didn't cost them anything. Swire and it just cost get it out. Because people find through SEO, they found them, they didn't have to go spend a lot of money on marketing. They just had to create. Frankly, it's an operational function. It's an ops expense, not even a marketing expense. That's one example. I think you touched on a good point. And I especially want to point out that this client of Mike pay him and his firm to do the research. And at the point that may not able to afford a marketing firm to help you, you need to do the research. Because a lot of us sometimes think that it doesn't work because we haven't done any research. We just do whatever the industry norm will. You know, in the case of Mike's example, he actually studied that he actually make recommendation to the client. This is what you haven't done that you should be doing. So if you can find it, that could change the way that you market. I think that we under something here. Research always says what we try to do, what I try to do. And this very much goes back to my marine Corps training. Keep it simple, right? Keep it simple. Stupid. The kiss principle. And so in know, everybody tries to make it all hard. Okay? And frankly, that's the riddle, the book, the great marketing lie. What is the great marketing lie? The lie is that marketing is hard. Marketing is not hard because we do marketing every day. We're surrounded by marketing. I have a quote, which is everything is marketing, and marketing is everything. So marketing is not hard. As I look at your backdrop, I see all kinds of things that you bought, and that is a function of marketing. You found value in the things you bought. And I can look at all that stuff, the headphones, the microphone, and the cat and the dad thing. It all got manufactured, created and sold because somebody found value in it. So we are surrounded by marketing. It's like we don't give ourselves a credit. It's like, okay, we make choices every day. So reverse engineer how it is that we make our purchase decisions, right? So marketing is not hard, and research is not hard. You know how we did the research? I'll tell you how we did the research. We took an intern and I turned to this intern and I said, I want you to call some distributors of these flat panels and ask them this, this and this. I want you to call some small businesses and ask them this, this and this. And I went about 20 instances of both. And at the end of the week, this intern came back and gave us. This is qualitative research. This is not quantitative. Quantitative can be more expensive. We didn't do expensive focus groups. We just talked to people. We talked to the market, we came back and we made some generalized assumptions that proved to be spot on. So research does not have to be hard. Marketing does not have to be hard. Yeah, I love that. And what I normally do. And people, when they come to us, buy promotional product, they just want to buy. When I ask them that same question, who are your audience? What are you trying to do? Right? So they stutter. Right? I just want to buy stuff and you're asking me all the question, kind of like what you have. But if you don't know who the ideal client is, talk to them, right? Or maybe if you're an intern, maybe you're a secretary, maybe yourself can call and especially your top ten, ask them why you buy from us. What do you think separate us than other companies? Do you think people sometimes are afraid to ask question, why do you buy from us? What's so good about us? No, I'll tell you all the clients that I've had over the two decades, hundreds of them, no business owners get comfortable, right? I'm talking about 5 million, 10 million, up to even 250,000,000. They just get comfortable. And what happens is the interaction with customers gets relegated to what? The sales team, right? And the sales team, they come back and they say what the customers want better pricing. That's what the sales team always says. They want better pricing, they want more for less, right. And so just to give you an know, how did our company, RSM marketing, you read the intro, you know, we offer an outsourced marketing department, okay? And that only came around because when we first started our company, we were talking to principals. So Bob and Jeff would walk into our office, right? They got referred. Bob and Jeff ran a manufacturing plant, and they realized Bob and Jeff would come in and, you know, after the great Recession, we understand this marketing thing has a new place. We kind of need to embrace it and figure it out. And we said, okay, well, as soon as you hire a marketing director, give us a call, because we'll need a marketing director to know our point of contact at your company to do all this good stuff. And they would walk out dejected. Well, that happened about four times. And we listened every time to what Bob and Jeff were saying. The next time that Bob and Jeff came in, we had decided in a kitchen talk, my business partner and I, the prior night, we were going to try to know a new category within marketing for ourselves, right? A new niche. And so we said to Bob and Jeff, the next set of BoB and ah, we know what you're really after. You really don't want to hire a marketing director because you don't know how to hire a marketing director. You don't understand marketing. You don't know how to manage that person. You don't know how to hire that person. We'll be your marketing director. Well, how are you going to do that? We have marketing directors on staff. We call them account managers, but account managers are generally marketing directors. So we just decided to change our labels. By the way, this comes out of a nice model called repositioning. Right. That is in this book with great marketing lie that business owners ought to embrace, which is, okay, just talk about your business differently. So we started talking about our business differently to Bob and Jeff. So we're going to give you a fractional marketing director, and we're going to give you everything you need for a flat monthly subscription. And Bob and Jeff went, you're going to do that? Well, no one else is doing that. Value creation, ring a ding a ding. No one else is doing it. And even to this day, not very many companies nationwide are doing it. And we did it. And as soon as we started talking to the market that way, products started flying, sales were flying off the shelf. We went from a $1 million company into multiple of that very quickly because we made changes on our marketing concept. Right. And who did it? The business owners did it, and it didn't cost us anything. We had to figure it out. I think it's always important for the person in charge. Right. Or if you're executive, things that you really care about, to talk to the end user, people actually using it, and really to ask that question, why do you buy from us? You have choices out there. I don't care what industry that you're in. There are always another solution. Right. Maybe you're saying I don't have competitors. Yeah. They could choose not to buy it. Right. When they purchase from you, especially if they repeat purchase from you, you're onto something, and you got to find out why these individuals want to buy from you. It's completely critical, because here's what happens. This is a really important point. It's called bias. So business owners think that they're solving the problem. Right. If I have an HR outsourcing firm, then obviously my customers want to buy outsourced HR. Okay? So in our case, we were a marketing firm, we would think that obviously our customers want to buy marketing services. But no, what we found out was far different. They actually didn't want to buy marketing services. That was a necessary. They knew they had to. But the problem we were solving, they didn't want to hire a marketing director. Whoa. Mind blown, right? They didn't want to hire a marketing director. That was the primary problem they had. And we brought a valued solution to that problem that really, we never even saw. We never even thought about that. Here's another example of how if you free your mind, your butt will follow, okay? And. But means your wallet is in your butt. Okay? So you start stuffing money into your wallet because you freed your mind. So we had another client. He was like a $50 million manufacturing firm. Brilliant guy. Just an engineer prodigy. And he made the best customized tools, custom tools. He would sell them to other manufacturing companies, and that's how you make all the custom products that we get. So, anyway, he sold dies. Custom dies. And he's like, we're trying to sell purchasing managers, and they send out rfps, these purchasing managers. And so purchasing managers, they don't value the product. They're just trying to drive the cost down. And he said to me, and this is where the answer is right in front of. Right. If I talk to a business owner for an hour, we can generally get to a very good place. So he said to me, Mike, what they don't understand is that all of our competitors take three months in order to make that tool, we can do it in three weeks. And what they don't know is when that tool goes down and they're waiting for three months, they're not able to run that manufacturing line and it's going to cost them way more. We can give the market the product in three weeks instead of three months. And I went, whoa, whoa, whoa. Here's what we're going to do. You're going to stop talking to purchasing managers, and we're going to start talking to coos and presidents and ceos because they're responsible for the P L. And you're saying, look, you can get your line up in three weeks instead of three months. And so their new tagline in an hour became three weeks, not three months. And they had targeted three very large, ideal customers. And within a month, with that change in strategy and change in brand strategy, closed one of those million dollar accounts in 30 days. And it didn't cost them anything. They freed their mind. Yeah, it's just a simple shift. Right. They still do the same thing. Same, providing the same value and same dollar amount. Right. For the invoice. But just by targeting different people who care about different things, it does all the wonders for them. Well, so what they found was the president or COO went into the purchasing manager and said, look, I want you. To buy, you got to buy. And the purchasing manager said, you ready for this? Here comes a corollary. Will they charge more? And the president or CEO would go, yeah, I don't care. We need to get this line back up. Give them whatever they want. That's literally the stories we heard back because that's how a C suite executive purchasing manager, their job is to drive down cost. But when you start talking. So all of a sudden, our clients pricing started going up. They had premium pricing and it was just not hard. But again, it focused on how can you differentiate a differentiation, model an exercise and extract that value that other people, your competitors aren't seeing? Yeah, I think that's a million dollar advice there, Mike. That's the million dollar question. Yeah. I'm giving you a lower level. I would say in my example, what I do in promotional product is I go to CEO and I go to chief marketing officer at trade shows or at events. So I normally make my case to them, but I find out when I talk to my customer, it's always the executive assistant and secretary who purchased from me. And I actually dropped down their ordering.

When they call me, it's usually later on in the week around after 04: 21:13

00 p.m. Because their boss, when they walk out the door, the CEO, the marketing manager walk out the door. Hey, we're doing an event in two weeks. You go find us the stuff that we need to giveaways. So they're actually in panic. So what I think I am providing the value to them because there are tons of competitors like myself who have all the pricing on there. It's automatic. You could go on there one click, it's shipped to you. They don't want that. They're in panic and then they need someone they can actually want to talk to. Someone. That's right. Someone will actually email me and then get it done. The kicker, similar to your example is I don't mind to pay more. I want to keep my job. I'm willing to pay you more just to get it done right so I can look good in front of my boss. So I actually figured that out. So right now, a lot of sales book talk about how to get past the gatekeeper. Like my model now is I'm hanging out at the gate to talk to all the gatekeepers because if I approach a bigger client, chances are I work with a client that they have over 50 executive assistant that works with me. They're big departments, but the boss, I never talk to the boss. It's always the executive assistant or the secretary who ordered for me. So that's how I am interpreting my validators. I ask them my phone call, I respond to you. Yes. I might not have all the bells and whistles on the online portal, but you get a human being that will respond to you and not just some bot give you a standard answer. I love it. Because I'll tell you what, this is what we hear all the time, too. I love what you said because you said, hey, we can be last minute and you're going to be dealing with real people rather than indiscriminate clicking and indiscriminate robots you don't even have. So here's a critical thought. When somebody buys that marketing message, that value proposition. Look, I get to work with swire's team and I know if it's last minute, they're okay with that, and I'll still be dealing with real people. I don't have to do a search online and try to get it clicking and wondering, is it going to arrive on time? No. And that's my risk profile. Okay. What I mean is I may never actually use that capability, but if that risk arises, I know I've got a solution for that risk. And so you're selling people today who may never, ever use what you're offering, but they want that in their back pocket. And for the CEO, sometimes there are CEO who ask their executive assistant to do my job to spend like 20 hours or even months searching for the perfect product. But when I ask them, how much do you pay your executive assistant or secretary? And then let's say my cost is $500 more, do you think have her spending two months on it will be less than $500 that you might potentially be spending with me? And then that's kind of like a mind shift. You say, oh, okay, we messed up. They spent two months just finding the product and I could just have it on my fingertip. Right. And so what happens then is I don't know where you've taken this on your website or even in your own marketing communications, right? But you're talking some strategic marketing stuff. You're making decisions on who you're talking to and your marketing message. Right. And how you shape that and then getting it out there. So it should, I would think that based on what you've said, if I were to go look at your website, it would look completely different, right. Because that's where you see a good proof of have you executed the marketing concept well, is go look at your website and if it looks different above the fold, if I can identify who are you, what do you do and why should I care, right. Especially the why should I care part above the fold. When I first look at your website, whether it's on laptop or mobile, I should be able to see that great marketing executed simply. Right. I'm a small business professional. Right. So I think the most frequently question or things that I'm scared of, if I listed all of that, am I missing out? Like if I list swire, I like to answer my own phone call, I respond to you quickly. And if I put that, am I missing out on other opportunity? Do you get asked that question a lot? Substitute a particular industry that the clients is in? Well, I got to tell you, yes. There's a couple of interesting takes there. First of all, you're going to have to go farther. You need to be uncomfortable with your own marketing messages. You need to feel a little like, oh, my God, that just feels. I'm just uncomfortable with that. Right. So, for instance, you said, we respond quickly. I'm going to challenge that because that's a 30,000 foot construct. We respond quickly. What does that really mean? So we recommend the four C's is in the book four C's is a mental model. The four C's is a way to get to easier decision making. So one of the C's, I'll give you the four C's, cut, concretize, categorize, and condition for complexity. Those are the four know. There's a great TEd talk on it. That's where we got it. But we listened to this TEd talk, pulled it down, and we changed how we thought about marketing. So one of the C's you're talking about is concretization, meaning take that thought. We respond quickly and make it concrete. Okay. And it's like, well, let's just. Quickly. So what does that look like? We respond within 10 minutes. Okay. That is more concrete than we respond quickly. Let's even make that more concrete. You will receive a call back from a live human being within 10 minutes, 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 365 days a year. That's really quick. Now, I know. Exactly. You can't get any more concrete than that. You know what I mean? Unless you offer guarantees. I mean, there's ways you can even have more fun with that. So that is, you take your marketing message, and then you make it concrete. And then you put it out there and you get uncomfortable with it because no one else in your category is doing it. And then you know what happens? Your phone starts ringing and you start closing business. And you start closing business at a higher price because people want insurance. I know how many tens of thousands of dollars I've spent on fire insurance for my home, and I've never had a fire. People do it in business. I want that company. Yes. I want that peace of mind. People want convenient. No. What are people buying today? Right? They're buying peace of mind. They're buying convenience. They're buying status. I don't have to do this anymore. I don't have to worry about this anymore. Instead of just, I'm buying a widget. I know I'm buying a widget, but I want all these other things. I want a lifetime warranty. I don't want to have to think about a warranty. Charge me a bit more for that. Make it go away. Really give me free shipping. I just want to think about. Make it go away. Yeah. That's a lot of good advice there, but I think I wouldn't let you go without asking this question, and I think. I'm sure that you get asked a lot. How much will marketing cost to me, to a company, or to a client? Okay. Does it cost more if I want more result or does it? Do you guarantee a result if I put in money in marketing? All right, you ready? I'm going to give you a very simple answer. Bad marketing costs a lot. Good marketing costs a lot less. Apple, Starbucks initially. Hey, but you don't have to be an apple and a Starbucks, right? So this is what I mean. When you achieve differentiation with value that nobody else has, then your marketers put it out there, right? So when we put it out there and we added a little bit of SEO, then all of a sudden, day and night and weekends, we started getting calls from presidents and business owners about what is this outsourced marketing department? I don't have to hire. They were curious and so they started reaching out to us. So that reduced the cost of marketing. We didn't have to buy billboards and we didn't have to do PPC ads. And I didn't even have to have a salesperson. I only got a salesperson. I was doing all that myself. Why? Because I was a business owner who needed to talk to another business owner because we understood and spoke the same language. So I was helping them and selling. Now, if you don't have, if you're selling a commodity product, then you're going to be trying to get a ton of your messaging out there. So now it all comes back to a 0.5% response rate, blah, blah, blah. And so you're going to get lucky to get a response that had a high marketing cost and a low closing rate. Do you see what I'm saying? Bad marketing costs a lot. Or marketing without strategy costs a lot. Matter of fact, if you're a business owner and you can't think of one strategy, I'm not saying website, that's not a strategy. Right. And a strategy should be easily defined in one to three words, right? Like outsource, marketing department. That is our strategy. That's our product strategy. For instance, we're online. Did you answer this so well, Mike, can I ask you one more? Yes. How long does it take? Boy, that's a tough one. It's almost like when do you stop being a parent? Never. So great marketing never stops. Because great marketing, when you have great marketing processes inside the management team, you're always coming to new levels of discovery. Oh my God, the market, we just learned this. Or perhaps they want that. Let's migrate. So how long does it really take? It can take as little as 5 minutes to get the idea and then the execution of it can take a little bit longer. You're going to have to, like in that example of the manufacturing company, when the CEO and I said, look, your strategy is speed. Your strategy is speed to market, right? Speed of delivery. And your brand strategy is three weeks. Say it over and over again, three weeks. Well, he had to get that down to the sales team. He had to get that out on his website. He had to get that into his business literature. He had to get that into his email campaign. So that takes a bit of time. But no, you can execute great marketing in as little as one to three months. And you can have that marketing spark. And frankly, if you have the right tools in place, wire. And that's what the great marketing lie really is. It gives you a set of tools that you can use with your management team in your annual strategy planning retreats for three to five years. Because there's always more things to take down in a company's business, right? What can we do better? How can we. Pricing. So product pricing place. How are we delivering online? Not online, International. Not international. What are we saying promotion about? How are we talking to our always ways to do those four P's better? And I like to keep it simple and just use the four P's. So yes, if you get me, you can get miles ahead fast and then you can build a moat around your business within one to three years. Build a moat around your business so that full of sharks with laser beams so that your competitors are nowhere close. Your business, that'll take one to three years. Generally, I think the biggest takeaway, Mike, is after you spend, assume that you spend money in marketing, right? You do all that. Your ultimate goal should be, that's why I can charge more. That's why we are premium. If you spend money in marketing so you could sell it for less, then I don't think you should do it. There's a great truth, and so I like to refer to great truths, and this is a great truth, swire. And everybody can take this to the bank today. Scarcity breeds value. The scarcer something is, the more we're going to pay for it. So if a business can make itself more scarce in the value that it offers and the higher the price, people will pay forever and ever and ever until supply increases to meet that demand. And that's know the fast mover advantage. That's what Silicon Valley has been trying to achieve for decades. Be the first mover because everybody's going to catch up with you in three to six months or a year, and then you got to go catch another first mover advantage. Mike, I think these are very good conversations. And getting to the point that I think listeners have a specific question for you. So if they do decide to reach out, what's the best way to reach out to you? Just go to Raptors biz. I would love to spend an hour with the business owner and talking just like this. And by the way, I enjoy these conversations because swire ho don't know everything, bro. I just know enough to be dangerous. But I'll tell you what, two people are a lot smarter than one, and you can rip off one another. And so what I enjoy about these discussions is that business owner is going to get a lot of value out of 30 minutes, and I'm going to get a lot of value because I'm going to learn what they're doing. And I've got this huge library computer going on, as they do. And you plug in new prompts to reach new places. And so I enjoy these conversations as well. But I swear, especially if we're talking about strategies and models to get to those strategies, then you can get there very quickly. Okay. And so, yeah, just go to raptors biz and you'll just contact me. Let's have a nice conversation over a cup of coffee. Thank you so much for coming on today, Mike. Thank you. Suwar. I had a lot of fun. Appreciate it. Thank you for listening to the show. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to the podcast and share with your friends or colleagues who might benefit from the conversation. Any questions or feedback, feel free to reach out to me on LinkedIn. I'd love to connect with you.

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